The songs featured during the recap: Lonesome Diary by Sandeul, We Want To Be Like You by Park Sejun, and Without Your Letter by Lee Nyeom.
The many confessions in this episode, especially by Han Ji Pyeong and Nam Do San, and how they each deal with rejection.
The depth of Seo Dal Mi’s devastation as she discovers the truth behind the letters and struggles with shattered confidence before Demo Day.
The beautiful and layered bus station scene between Nam Do San and Seo Dal Mi, including her heartbreaking question, “Was it fun?”
Han Ji Pyeong’s emotional confession over lunch and the debate between us about whether it was character assassination or honesty.
The emotional and philosophical discussion between Nam Do San and his father about shedding expectations and just being themselves.
Chul San’s confession to Jung Sa Ha and how she unexpectedly seems touched by his sincerity.
The symbolism of the suit and the decision by Nam Do San to present his authentic self, not a version dressed up for someone else.
How the theme of “white lies” echoes across multiple storylines—grandmother, Nam Do San, Han Ji Pyeong, and Won In Jae—and the consequences of those lies.
The offer by Alex Kwon of a job at 2STO and the golden handcuffs of stock options; Joanna explains the financial implications in USD.
The haunting storyline about Yong San’s brother and his desire for revenge against Han Ji Pyeong, whom he blames for his brother’s death.
The significance of “Plan B,” and how both Joanna and Sung Hee interpret its double meaning in different ways.
Filming locations from Start-Up, including Oil Tank Culture Park (Sandbox exterior), Yeouido Hangang Park (corndog stand), Uijeongu Cathedral (church), and the Conrad Hotel in Seoul (HJP's apartment).
References
Ok gang! After a few quieter weeks for me, I HAVE to take issue with Joanna’s view on Ji-pyeong’s confession and subsequent explanation at lunch. Why the suspicions about his character, when all he did was tell her the absolute truth? He was honest about both his own feelings and motives and also those of Do san’s! If he really wanted to sabotage NDS, he could have left out the parts about Do san’s own sincerity about wanting her to be CEO andbhis genuine romantic interest in her, to combat her impression that it was all a lie. How is this “character assasination” or a false “trying to look like the good guy”?
ReplyDeleteAlso, his confession of his own feelings without asking for anything happened to me years ago, with a guy from work. He confessed that he had a crush on me, but was fairly sure it wasn’t reciprocated, which was true. He wanted to make sure. Then we worked together for another year, he met a really nice woman who he married, and thanked me for turning me down but staying his friend. Great guy!
I think your affection for NDS is turning you in a cynical direction on this, so please cut the guy a break! I’m on Team NDS too, but I think Ji-pyeong is trying to be fair to his rival and honest with Dal-mi. So there!
Other than that, I agree with you on everything else, great episode!
Doremi
DeleteOh, Joanna, as a signed up member of Team NDS, I have to agree with Ellen! I think you're looking for motivations that aren't there, and HJP deserves credit for his honesty here.
DeleteI also think NDS follows SDM out of concern rather than obsession, so no, he's not a stalker. :)
Ellen,
DeleteHear! Hear!
Ellen and Doremi, thanks for your comments!
DeleteEllen, the guy who told you he had a crush on you let you know because he *hoped* you felt the same way! That's different from saying you like someone and don't expect an answer!
I love how Team HJP is coming to his defense, but even Team NDS players are trying to be fair!
Doremi, I still think Han Ji Pyeong was trying to make himself look better because, as he said, he doesn't like NDS very much. And you and I both agree that NDS is not a stalker. And like you said, thank goodness he followed SDM to the bar; otherwise, she could have recruited into a cult!
Okay. I might be the only one who found the bar scene/s more than a comedic diversion, but here goes.
ReplyDeleteWhen the lady asks who the heck this guy is, the one pushing back on her advice and raving about scientific method, SDM answers with a big smile, 'Nam. Do. San.'
I think this SDM acknowledging her appreciation for the *real* NDS, who has shown up for her in all his nerdy straightforwardness, just when she is at her most vulnerable.
I had the feeling that there was an 'in joke' about this woman at the bar and her advice, so I looked at some online comments from the time of Ep 10s release.
Apparently, 'trust your ancestors' is an infamous line used by recruiters for cults in SK. They convince vulnerable people to take part in ancestral rites ceremonies as the starting point for other controlling practices, including blackmail/extortion.
So SDM really was being preyed upon, and NDS was right to intervene.
In the reprise scene with the cameo actress, it's clear that the street smart HJP is never going to fall for that stuff, even while drunk and confused!
Thanks Doremi for the above, and I agree back on the stalker thing. That’s fascinating about the cult lure! Thanks for checking that one out. I also think, like you, that NDS and HJP are too sharp for any tricks like that, and I would hope SDM is too! She’s been sharper than anticipated so far.
DeleteThanks for the extra detective work, Doremi! I also got a sinister vibe from the mystery woman at the bar. First of all, constantly pouring & pushing alcohol to a drunk person is super weird and creepy. Who does that? However, I also thought it might be a cultural thing -- just like that goofy shirt with the cartoon character every South Korean viewer would already be familiar with, I was wondering if there was a similar "inside joke" -- like an equally recognizable actress that was in a show about ancestors, or had a connection to that catch phrase -- which would make that scene much more comical, and less sinister.
DeleteDoremi, THIS is an incredible piece of cultural insight! Thank you! Wow! It went right over our heads, so thank goodness you dug deeper.
DeleteThis episode is spicy and I love it! First time I heard a (kinda?) heated argument here 😆. I didn't rewatch the show so I don't remember some of the points being discussed but back then I was team NDS. But because I don't remember much I can't pick a side and will just be a curious observer.
ReplyDeleteIt looks like the 4th instalment of Knives Out has been released early lol.
ReplyDeleteJoanna, you crossed the line, and your life is forfeit. It is time for you now to throw yourself on the floor and shout “I deserve to die!. Please kill me!” hahaha
Jokes aside now. I wanted to be fair to you, so I went and watched that first scene 3 more times. And with 3 different subtitles in the 3 languages I speak. I have also listened again to the podcast just to be sure.
I am sorry Joanna, I disagree with you even more with multiple viewing and listening to your reasoning. I am completely in agreement with Sung-Hee.
You are essentially saying in that first crucial encounter HJP threw The Grandmother & NDS under the bus, and with subtlety.
I find this statement very, very unjust. If anything, he was actually nice to both. Especially to NDS, who is by far the biggest beneficiary of this whole lie. HJP got absolutely nothing out of this lie. He was doing all this out of sense of gratitude to the Grandmother. He was even willing to sacrifice his happiness and give the letter to NDS.
HJP was about to tell SDM the truth before NDS interrupted them few episodes ago. Now, THAT was calculation and pro-active self interest action.
But, to be also fair to NDS, he also wanted to tell the truth, but the Grandmother asked him not to.
So, although it is really painful to say, the Grandmother has to take some responsibility.
Furthermore, HJP was caught off guard, and had to answer questions under pressure. Hardly a situation for subtle character assassination.
You complain that he didn’t answer a simple yes to the question who wrote the letters, but you ignore SDM wanted the whole truth. Also, how can he avoid telling her the truth without telling about the Grandmother?? You seem to want him to come up with more lies and take all the blame. Never mind that constructing a good lie is actually hard, and to do it under big pressure is extremely hard.
As for the second scene. Again, I find myself strongly disagree with you. On one hand you talk about imbalance of power between HJP & SDM, but then you complain that he is giving her a space, and not telling her to be with him.
I honestly don’t see how giving her a breathing space to process her emotions is pressurising?
As I said in the previous episode, I think NDS & SDM are more compatible and would make a better couple, but let’s be fair here. HJP ,while often rude and not nice, has done pretty much all the hard work. The whole company would have been dead and buried by now if it wasn’t for him. I think NDS would have eventually made it, because he has the brain, but SDM would most likely be still doing some odd job.
Joanna, you need to do some knitting and reflect hahaha.
On that regret quote. This time my reaction was exactly like Joanna.
I have talked a lot for now (most likely will come back for more), so I will end by saying that I absolutely loved NDS&SDM scene on the bus stop. Ah! Nam Joo Hyuk cries so well lol.
My life is forfeit! Oh no! I guess I'll drive myself to the craft store for some knitting supplies. I'll have to take a lesson from Sung Hee!
DeleteYou make a good point that Han Ji Pyeong was taken off guard at the bird house, but that confession while stirring up the food and then saying he didn't expect anything from her - what the hell?!
I agree that the grandmother deserves blame, but SDM cares about her too much and it would be painful to rage at the grandmother.
You and I both agree that SDM and NDS belong to each other, so there's that! This show is bringing up some emotions and some fantastic comments! LOVE IT ALL!
I did not enjoy this Start-Up episode as much as the last two, but the K-Drama Podcast episode was GOLD!
ReplyDeleteJoanna, I loved what you said about this little blogging site: no trolls, very welcoming. Can you imagine if the conflicts and disagreements of our crazy world could be handled this way? A vigorous sharing of takes, thoughts, and opinions -- all done in a spirit of fun, humor and respect. OF COURSE we will disagree on occasion!
And kudos to Start-Up, as I believe Sung-Hee mentioned, for maintaining a show with multiple ways to look at things -- even creating multiple scenarios: which one was real & which was a fantasy in one of the characters' minds?
While I'm newer to K-Dramas than many here, I do listen to a ton of podcasts, and in my view "total agreement" and uniformity of opinion is a natural & very human thing for shows to slip into, but does not really make for good listening. Of course, "manufactured conflict" (you can hear this a lot in sports radio/podcasts/shows) can be super-annoying & fakey once you come to recognize it, although it certainly has a massive (male) audience, so what do I know. LOL
Agreed Jeff about this blog.
DeleteI was like a nomand for about 1-2 years between websites until this blog came to life.
MDL (the largest board for Asian dramas) is without doubt the worst website for mature discussions. The amount of insults is staggering. There is unbelievable level of intolerance.
The verb dislike has somehow changed its meaning and it is equated to hate. You can praise 10 things about a show, and criticise one thing, you will be labeled a hater.
And once I dared to say that I like the acting of the second lead more than the first. I was told to shut up. A comment that got over 100 likes lol.
After few futile months where I had only handful good discussions I stopped posting.
There are some other boards that has maturity, but has way too many people.
I prefer smaller but more intimate groups rather than hundreds of names, but they don't mean much.
Then I found this podcast and blog. It was almost custom made for me :). The Hosts, and format was fantastic. The blog was lacking when I first was commenting, but I found myself being mentioned in the podcast proper! I also started to notice Malcolm, and his hillarious comments lol. Oh! The fun comments he had about Kingdom! lol. But, slowly the blog is getting bigger in a nice organic way.
I now look forward SO much to what others think, and feel at ease joking with others, and I hope everyone isn't afraid/shy from making jokes about me.
And this particular series is really greatly benefiting from the podcast and blog for me.
Jeff and Seven Seas, I am SO GLAD you are here, commenting on the blog!
DeleteAnd let me tell you, I'm obviously an admin on the blog! No trolls allowed! Seriously, people, it's a K Drama! People are entitled to their own opinions. As long as we're respectful, it's all good. And, of course, it helps to be funny and clever!
Let the roasting continue! As a friend likes to say, "I have my big girl underwear on, I can handle anything!"
LOVE YOU ALL for the comments, the perspectives, the fun!!!
And Seven Seas, I'm sorry you received such hate! I have always found your comments thoughtful and interesting. I don't always agree with you, but isn't that what makes life fun? To hear and learn from others, and see a show in new and different way?
DeleteWHOA! What an episode! Shots were fired. The way I gasped at 33:33 and shouted “but it’s the truth” at 34:50
ReplyDeleteThankfully Sung Hee was on the side of truth. Ha ha. Most intense 3 seconds in podcast history. I kept saying Preach, Sung Hee, Preach.
This was so much fun you guys. Only you two can disagree in such a friendly manner. I love how loyal Johanna is to NDS. On a lighter note… I could have sworn putting your hair up in a ponytail before doing something important was already a K drama element, also on that list could be magpies / crows.
I’m proud of the grandma for how she’s handled the situation with the mother. The older I get I the more I can accept a flawed person trying to change and move on from who they were. Especially in this show where everyone except for maybe SDM has made some pretty big mistakes and told pretty big lies even though they seemed harmless at the moment. Again, great episode. I can’t wait till the next.
Marcela, I hope you all can tell that Sung Hee and I have a ball this season and YOU all are part of the reason why!
DeleteIt's sooooo interesting to see how passionate people are about being Team NDS vs. Team HJP. Wow, just wow!
Thanks for listening and being part of the community!
All, I am in love with the comments! Please, roast me, disagree with me, make your case - it’s all in the name of understanding human nature a little better!
ReplyDeleteAs long as we disagree in good fun and with respect, bring it on! More comments later about this episode and about YOUR comment on our podcast episode. Just wanted to be sure you all know that I am loving the comments and the chemistry between all of us!
Thanks for that comment, Joanna. I was worried that you might feel 'piled on', so it's good to know you are up for some push back on your vibes about HJP.
DeleteI think if he really was such a conniving player, there wouldn't be any Team Han Ji-pyeong.
Wow, what a discussion and what a debate! It was lively on the podcast and has continued on here in this discussion. It’s wonderful to see how engaged and passionate everyone is. Joanna and I are not only co-podcast hosts, but since we’re the best of friends, we have the room to have opposite opinions and defend them to the end. As I’ve said before, I truly think that as much as we debate, I think whose side we’re on is an emotional decision that we try to back up with logical arguments. But of course, this is up to the listener to make their final conclusions.
DeleteJoanna, I'm so glad to hear you're finally starting Moving! Let me know what you think about it.
DeleteEveryone, do know that even if I do not comment regularly, I am in this journey. I'm glad I'm rewatching it, and listening to the deep dives this time. I couldn't remember it was this heartwarming. I used to be Team Good Boy, but now I understand Nam Do San more.
I have started Can This Love Be Translated? because Kim Seon Ho, and I'm loving it.
I've been thinking about the underdeveloped characters of SDM's mother and sister.
DeletePerhaps there is implied context that non-Korean viewers are missing?
For example, I don't think SDM's father shared the extent of his workplace abuse with his wife? And as a traditional SK stay-at-home mother, she has very little agency in terms of the family's income or social standing. She's counting on him for all of that, and he's telling her to risk everything for an idea so ahead of its time it must have seemed fanciful.
As for SDM's ambitious and pragmatic sister, she has a tough choice to make when her parents split, and by choosing Mum, she's bucking the SK tradition of the children staying with the father. Maybe it was easier to make an emotional break than to try to stay connected to a family you've chosen to leave?
Or maybe they're just coldhearted and undeserving!
Doremi, this is the stuff that truly fascinates me -- the Korean world-view (at least insofar as it is expressed in k-dramas) and how it differs from the Western vision that grounds my understanding of how people interact and get along.
DeleteI'm still going with "coldhearted and undeserving" for these two -- I can't imagine the show is trying to portray them as something different that! But clearly there are cultural aspect and layers that I may be missing.
Wow. What an episode and WHAT a podcast! The gloves are off! I haven’t seen this contentious a debate since CNN canceled Crossfire!
ReplyDeleteBefore I weigh in with my thoughts, we have to address the elephant in the room. Are there no birds in that town where the birdhouse is?!?! That letter has been sitting there for 15 years and not one bird has thought to make that its home?
I am going to start my thoughts with how SDM reacted and treated each of the people who were part of this lie. Frankly, I think she was awfully harsh with NDS compared to everyone else. Granted, she just found out a huge part of her life was based on lies and she is trying to understand the situation, but I thought she was unbelievable cruel with NDS who clearly loves her. Maybe if she took some time to fully evaluate each person’s role in these lies, she would save some of her harsh words for the others involved. Out of everyone involved, NDS is the least culpable. But maybe because she was closest to him, or had the strongest feelings for him, he got the worst of it. The way I see it, NDS only ever wanted to help her. He initially did not want to be a part of the initial lie, but ended up doing it after reading her letters so that she could save face and not look like a fool in front of her sister. He did NOT do it for the money. He continued with the lie because HJP and the grandmother kept asking him to do so. He wanted to come clean several times and did not because he thought it would either hurt her or the grandmother. Which brings me to my next point.
SDM says nothing to her grandmother! At least in this episode. This was all her idea! Now I get that she probably feels like she can’t turn on her grandmother. She is her family, and really her only real family at this point. If she destroyed that relationship she would have no one. But still, you think she would at least have a conversation with her about this whole situation. But maybe this episode is just about SDM and HJP. Honestly, even though I have seen this K Drama it’s been a few years and I genuinely do not remember what comes next. I think Sung-hee must have infected me when we met for dinner with Ernabel! LOL
As for HJP, I don’t approve of his behavior. I agree with Joanna that he was subtly trying to paint NDS in a negative light by raising the issue of NDS wanting money when he approached him. The fact that he later clarified that NDS did not do it for the money does not excuse it. If anything, him “defending” NDS after implying he did it for the money makes HJP seem like a good guy. As for the confession, I think it was totally inappropriate and bad form. I am not one of these “bro code” guys, but HJP only confessed after SDM and NDS were in a relationship AND the whole thing blew up because of his (and the grandmother’s) lies. He confesses at the worst possible time for SDM! Sure, just put more on her plate at the worst possible moment. Not cool HJP! For those of you defending HJP, I would say that, yes, he has done certain nice things for SDM (and even Samsan Tech), but he hasn’t really been nice.
DeleteAnother thought: the whole Korean confession thing is quite unusual. In one sense it seems cool because you can confess your feelings and tell the other person, “No pressure” or “I’ll wait for your answer.” However, it clearly does put pressure on the other person. I wonder how prevalent the “confession” is in ordinary Korean life, or if this is a thing that mostly happens in K Dramas.
Finally, I think NDS is pretty good at bluffing when it comes to confrontations with HJP. In this episode he tells him he doesn’t need his watch or car or his money. But in the end, he takes the offer from Alex Kwon and the job at 2STO because he is worried that without money, he will lose SDM to HJP and his money. This is also why I think he was bluffing in the scene with the hair scrunchie. Clearly, it bothered him, but he did not want to show it in front of HJP.
Wow. A lot of thoughts this week. I am loving everyone’s comments on the blog. This is such a fun community.
Malcolm, FINALLY! Someone who sees my perspective!
DeleteI think HJP explaining NDS's behavior as well intentioned WAS an effort to make himself look good. And I totally agree with you that HJP's confession was awful. He was confessing like he was saying "pass the salt" and he did it during a terrible time, after her world has just been shattered AND she's prepping for Demo Day! And then he says he'll be her Plan B? C'mon!
And you and I are together re: the scene with the scrunchie! NDS knows how to hold his own with HJP! It's so strange, btw, that you agree with me, coz usually, you don't! I could get used to this. :-)
And yes, fantastic comments on the blog. What a terrific community!
Oh yeah, HJP's confession was all about himself. He wants to get it all off his chest. 'Timing' comes up all the time in Kdrama, and this is baaad timing.
DeleteLike I've said before, it's great that he's realised he can fall in love, but he's not the one for SDM!
OK guys, I'd love your thoughts on another one of the odd "loose ends" and stray scenes that made ZERO sense to me. I watched this episode on the treadmill, so it's possible I missed something.
ReplyDeleteNDS places our plucky heroine Bae Suzy on a swing set, in a public park, drunk and incapacitated (not tipsy, but so drunk "she will not remember anything tomorrow"). He then LEAVES HER THERE all alone in a park so that he can go home and put on a suit (because it once made her happy to see him in that same suit???).
Now wearing the suit, NDS heads back to the park -- he runs and runs so that she can enjoy the sight of see him wearing the suit (even though she would apparently be too drunk to remember it the next day?) and he accidently gets an ice cream cone smear on it, but bravely runs ahead, undeterred, because when she sees him in the suit it's just gonna be so awesome for her.
Alas, by the time he finally gets back to the park a random maintenance guy informs him that the clearly inebriated girl sobered up just enough to stagger off on her own volition, however many minutes or hours earlier.
Nest scene: it's the next day! Bae Suzy's back at work (she's alive and well, thank goodness), and NDS fumbles in some point later, and there's no mention of the park, the alcohol, the weird cult lady, ice cream cones, hangovers, or the magically awesome suit.
Am I missing something? Because it seems even more confusing and ludicrous when I type it out like this.
I'm glad Sung-Hee and Joanna made the point that Korea is a far safer place than the USA to leave your backpack or a drunk girl in the park at night. I can accept that, but...I'm still scratching my head about what the heck happened here. It seems like a long way to go for a suit, both for NDS as well as the show itself!
Jeff, I found that startling and inexplicable as well. Did he go check to see if she made it home ok? If not, why not? For me, there are way too many drunk is cute and funny scenes in Kdramas in general. Reality is that drunk is dangerous and not cute at all, and I don’t understand.
ReplyDelete