The shows that are heavily spoiled in this episode: Crash Landing On You, Mr. Queen, Mr. Sunshine, When the Phone Rings, and Captivating the King.
Ellen’s background as a screenwriter and technical writer, and how her passion for K Dramas began with My Mister.
The Western three-act structure versus the Korean four-act structure (gi-seung-jeon-gyeol), and how each style approaches storytelling and character development.
Detailed examples of setup, midpoint, and conclusion in Crash Landing On You, Mr. Queen, and Mr. Sunshine.
What makes these shows work: believable character arcs, clear motivations, strong midpoint turns, and emotional payoffs.
The redemption arc as a dramatic formula, especially in characters like Gu Seung-jun (CLOY) and Jang Bong-hwan (Mr. Queen).
Why humor breaks are essential in Korean dramas and how they add richness to character and story.
Foreshadowing and payoffs (or lack thereof) in When the Phone Rings, and why the “Argan” plot twist derailed the show.
The pacing and structural missteps in Captivating the King, including over-explaining, weak female lead development, and a lack of trust in the audience.The importance of a “MacGuffin” in each drama—a central object or goal everyone is chasing.
How K Dramas “trust the audience” by skipping mundane scenes and using implication rather than exposition.
The emotional power of music in K Dramas, especially in Mr. Queen, CLOY, and Mr. Sunshine, and how it enhances tone and viewer engagement.
Why well-crafted character interaction reveals motivation better than exposition.
The writing mantra: “Make me care.” How the best dramas engage our emotions without making us think about structure until the end.
What we’re watching now, including Bon Appetit, Heavenly Ever After, Typhoon Family, Because This is My First Life, Signal, and Will You Marry Me.
A big reveal: the next K Drama we’ll be recapping in Season 13! You have to listen to find out!
Loved this episode soooo much! Thanks Ellen, for walking us through all the mechanics of screenwriting in general and Kdrama plotting in particular.
ReplyDeleteIt was the pacing in Bon Appetit that ruined it for me. All this build up, with such an unsatisfying conclusion. Perhaps it was an attempt to achieve a Western happy ending, but it ended up being rushed, with a missed opportunity to show the King's travel to the future, and his transition to modern life. I would have happily given up a couple of food battle eps for that.
Looking forward to Start Up! Might watch each episode again after your discussions.
And hoping to find other people who have stuck with Typhoon Family, and, like me, are finding the slow build/slice of life/great ensemble cast/nuanced character potrayal etc etc, appealing and moving.
Doremi,
Deletere:Typhoon Family. I actually love all the elements you mentioned. Slow build/slice of life/great ensemble cast/nuanced character potrayal. Slice of life is by far my favourite genre.
The problem is that, in my opinion, Typhoon Family wasn't executing those elements well. I have watched 4 episodes, and it was still average. I also certainly didn't like its tonal shifts. I felt it was poorly done. The dialogues were not that deep, again in my opinion, charming, or captivating.
There are also lots of small things I strongly disliked.
So, if I can summarise it in one sentence. Great setup, and leads, but poor executions.
All that said, I am happy that you are enjoying it.
Thanks for replying, Seven Seas. I agree that the (important) first few episodes could have been handled better. I'm definitely hooked now, though. Will see if they can 'stick the landing'!
DeleteDoremi, I don't know why but your comment got flagged for review. Who knows why? Even my comments sometimes get flagged. I approved it, of course.
DeleteI agree that the pacing of BAYM was off. Too much time on the cooking competition, and a rushed ending. Anyway, we talk about this with Ernabel in this week's episode. I can't wait for you to hear it.
As for Typhoon Family, I will come back to it. I think I need to give it a real try, even though Seven Seas and Malcolm say it's meh. I like the actors and the time period.
Doremi, it looks like your original comment has returned since Joanna overruled it being flagged for review.
DeleteAs Joanna said, we all agree with your point about the pacing. Also, when pressed to think about it, I don't think it had a compelling midpoint to give the storyline enough structure and weight.
Your point about Typhoon Family is well taken. I stopped after 6 episodes, since it seemed to me that it was just one predictable setback after another. I'll consider going back and taking another look (in my spare time after starting our new season 13 on Start Up). I do love the two main leads.
Thanks for the replies Joanna and Sung Hee. Having really engaged with Eps 7&8 of TF, I was disappointed with 9&10. The lead couple are still great but even I'm feeling like the writers just took us on a side quest for these two. (Another product, another port, another setback.) I will finish it, though, just to see if the ensemble cast get the story arcs they deserve.
DeleteMy earlier comment disappeared (?), so I'll reiterate my appreciation for Ellen's input.
ReplyDeleteI also loved the ending of CLOY. It was 'realistic' within the rules of the world of the drama, which was obviously highly romantic and fantastical. If Seri can almost die from sepsis but still make it to the border, then Captain Ri can stop practising for years, get shot in the shoulder and still be the principal pianist of the NK National Orchestra!
Let me know if my former comment, (where I outlined why I think Typhoon Family is worth continuing, and why I'm not a huge fan of BAYM, in spite of its many charmng qualities) breached the rules of this community somehow. Or maybe it was just a glitch?
Doremi, I'm so glad you enjoyed our episode with Ellen! She was terrific.
DeleteWe all loved the CLOY ending, especially because it was, as you say, "realistic" within the confines of the drama. Lots of crazy things, but the once a year reunion was the best they could hope for. And like I said in the podcast, East Asian audiences would recognize the retelling of the Goat Herder and the Weaver tale.
Thanks for listening and commenting!
Thanks Joanna, Sung Hee and Ellen for a very educational episode about screen writing. Having a subject matter expert is a great idea. I met someone last night who does music production for some of the songs in “XO Kitty” and told me that a big portion of his work has shifted to South Korean music production. He also said that many popular Korean songs are written by Swedish songwriters or Los Angeles based writers. How about a Korean music expert in a future episode?
ReplyDeleteLooking forward to the bottle podcast on Bon Appetit Your Majesty. I hope you touch on two areas. 1) The choice of Yeonsangun as the historical basis for the male lead seems very different from the choice of Cheoljong as the basis for the lead in Mr. Queen. Yeonsangun seems to have been a deeply flawed tyrant whose actions can’t be excused by the plotlines in the way that Mr. Queen manages to pull off. 2) On a lighter note, there is a Reddit thread called “Bonne Appétit, Your Majesty: Loved It, But We Deserved More” that has a very amusing summary of what the poster says is the actual ending to the story in the web novel. I’d love to hear your thoughts on the alternative ending.
Sung Hee, I’m glad to hear you’re liking the wonderful Because This Is My First Life. I’m enjoying Jung So-Min in her current show “Would you Marry Me” on Disney/Hulu. So far the show is tropey but charming, and the leads (Choi Woo-Shik is the ML) have great chemistry.
TripAndCatch! You just helped Sung Hee find a new K Drama for her Top 10! That's no small thing! I will get there, thank you.
DeleteWe are hoping to have a guest on the podcast who can talk about the K Drama OSTs. They are so important to the shows! Stay tuned. Ernabel has a connection.
I can't wait to hear what you think of our review of Bon Appetit. It was SO HARD to do an entire season in one episode. I'm waiting for the episode to come back from editing. I think it's gonna be a long one. Oh well...
Hello, TripAndCatch, I can't thank you enough for recommending Because This is My First Life. Such a great examination of love and relationships. I was hooked all the way through and several nights stayed up way to late to see just one more episode.
DeleteI hope you like our review of BAYM. We know that we couldn't do as deep of a discussion of an entire show in just one episode, but we hope we covered enough of the bases. As far as rehabilitating the image of Yeongsangun as king, I'm wondering if that was one reason they changed the name and made him a fictional king, even though it was obvious to everyone who he really was.
Thank you for having Ellen on the podcast to talk about the elements of screenwriting and to relive some of my favorite K-dramas. Ellen, with My Mister as your first K-drama, you truly started with one of the best, it’s in my top five! I completely agree that the best series don’t spell out every detail. I love piecing things together myself and discovering new layers each time I rewatch. That’s also why I appreciate your deep dives, they always help me catch nuances or story points I might’ve missed.
ReplyDeleteI’m especially excited to rewatch Start-Up with you guys, it’s where I first learned what “second lead syndrome” really means!
Irma, thank you for your comments. Yes, having Ellen on the podcast was a treat. We learned so much. And, as you will see in episode 12.18, she has given us new language to use when analyzing shows! Bonus!
DeleteWe can't wait for Startup. It's such a great show. So much to talk about, great actors, fantastic acting, amazing romance, delicious food, great grandma - the works! And yes, an amazing second lead. But what's interesting is that you don't know who the lead is until close to the end.
Hi
ReplyDeleteI’d like to comment on this latest episode regarding screenwriting in K Drama.
I’m a ‘long-time, first-time’ (long-time listener, first-time poster) to your podcast, but wanted to say a few things specifically about your excellent guest, Ellen Sullivan.
She certainly came well-prepared to the topic and also showed real depth and knowledge.
I watch K dramas also but prefer police procedural shows to romance. However, I was struck by the commentary Ellen brought and the emotion I heard in her voice, especially describing long-lost and/or unfulfilled love. I hope she hasn’t been hurt in some fashion, but then, who of us hasn’t been by the time we have reached a certain age?
PS - I know she knows but the song in ‘Casablanca’ is ‘As Time Goes By’.
.
Hello, anonymous. Thank you for posting for the first time. As you have probably noticed, we're all friends here, so come on down and post whenever you are moved to do so!
DeleteEllen was amazing and we are so grateful that she came on the podcast.
Anonymous, so glad to have you join the conversation. You are clearly a sensitive listener who hears every nuance. Please let us know which shows are your favorites! Did you see Stranger (Forest of Secrets)? I thought that was particularly good, with Cho Seung Woo and Bae Doona, two of my favorite actors. Lee Jun Hyuk (whom many of us know from his star turn in the romance Love Scout) was excellent as the antagonist. We'll be happy to hear your thoughts!
DeleteThank you all, so much, for your kind and generous comments! It felt so good, as I’m sure Malcolm can also attest, to contribute to our general appreciation and affection for our beloved Kdramas! I’m happy to recede back into the audience, except for a comment here and there, to enjoy all that Joanna, Sung hee, and all of you commenters contribute here. I spent many years in Hawaii, so Mahalo and Aloha Nui Nui!
ReplyDeleteThank you Ellen for your rich insights! It was interesting to hear the comparison between American TV series and Kdrama structure. Really enjoyed the podcast. And it was amazing to hear about your family history! Look forward to your continued comments here.
DeleteThank you, Ellen for being a guest on the podcast. I, as well as so many of our listeners, appreciate your insights and knowledge of what makes good writing and storytelling. And thank you for your longstanding support and your warm comments on the blog. We are so honored to have people like you who have been inspired by our shared love of these deep stories to come together with us and become true friends.
DeleteHello! I’m a little late with my comment, but I cannot pass up the opportunité to share how much I LOVED this episode. Ellen, you brought so much and explained in words with screewriting language and techniques (of which i had no knowledge of) how screenwriters make us go on these wild emotional journeys, really! 😁 Like so many others, I love kdramas and barely watch any american or canadian content anymore, because of the heart felt emotions that kdramas bring. Watching them for me is cathartic, swoonworthy and overall such an amazing experience (even when i was heartbroken for months after a finale that just broke my heart - cue Hôtel de Luna and Mr. Sunshine!) But I was intrigued with kdramas and their stories and kept going back. I actually started with Fantasy cdramas and I still watch many (yes even 67episodes cdramas! I was nursing a clusterfeeding baby at the time and needed entertainment haha). And it won me over. Not a lot of people around me watch asian dramas and so it’s hard sometimes to explain why I love them so much to people who are not interested and don’t understand why I don’t watch « regular shows » anymore. But listening to this episode, a lot of what was discussed made sense and I could relate it to so many stories and dramas and shows that I’ve watched. I’ll probably go back and listen to it again because it kind of made me look at dramas differently (in a good way!) And also, i’m relieved to hear Ryan and I weren’t the only ones totally disappointed with Captivating the King! It looked so cool, and started out so great and then was a major disapointment! Thank you again, I thoroughly enjoyed the episode and look forward to hearing more from you Ellen!
ReplyDeleteHappy K-drama watching everyone! Looking forward to Start Up, another one I’Ve heard about but haven’t seen yet. It’s not my typical genre, but i like to go outside of my usual cup of tea, especially with K-drama Chat! 😊 And it’s probably going to suit Ryan’s tastes - he’s all about teck!
Thanks so much Beatrice! Since I started studying screenwriting, I have found it funny, and ironic, at how much contrivance has to go into making it seem uncontrived! I’ve watched all of Startup, and it’s well worth a whole season. Can’t wait to hear Joanna and Sung-hee’s take on it: It’s very original in subject matter, too.
DeleteBeatrice,
DeleteI completely share your sentiment about Kdrama making you feel things.
I often see how I am being emotionally manipulated, but I don't care.
Btw...if your husband into tech , there was a "regular show", lol, I really loved. "Halt and Catch Fire" ran between 2014-2017. 4 Seasons, 40 episodes.
Thanks for the recommendation Seven Seas - I’ll check with him if he’s it yet! I like how you call it being émotionally manipulated haha that’s totally it!
DeleteSeven Seas, Halt and Cath Fire is an AMAZING show. I'm surprised more people don't know about it!
DeleteBéatrice Lyne, thank you for your comments! Yes, Ellen was wonderful, so glad you enjoyed this episode with her. She has really given us more and better language to interpret these shows!
DeleteI'm so glad that you and Ryan are still watching K Dramas together AND listening to the podcast. What fun!
I hope you love Start-Up as much as we do. It's a different genre and this show is full of drama, romance and heart. The acting is wonderful!
I really enjoyed this episode and Ellen’s input and take on various series. If anything, I wished it was “deeper” regarding screenwriting. I hope we can one day get an episode where Ellen can do a deep dive of her own from a professional pov about one series only.
ReplyDelete*Ellen, starting with “My Mister” is a bit unfortunate in my opinion :). How can you beat it?
*On the endings. I am a fan of the opening lines of Anna Karenina “All happy families are alike; each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way”. I think you get the point.
*Sung-Hee: re- “Because This is My First Life”. So, I have been recommending this as far back as December 2023 (5.17) and as recent as few weeks ago, suggesting it for the new season. But, TripAndCatch mention it once, and you pick it up? *Goes to sit sulking in a corner* I want a lollipop!!
Teasing :) .I am really happy that you are loving it. And I really hope we can have it soon as a pick. It has a great combination of seriousness and fluff.
*I watched Bong Joon-Ho first feature film. Barking Dogs Never Bite. It is a decent film, but rough around the edges, and needs some polishing. However, you can see the seeds, and signs of what to come.
*I started watching “As You Stood By” (Netflix). After episode 1, I would say very average writing, but intriguing set up. So, I will keep watching, but the series certainly has the potential to go to Argan. Let’s hope it won’t.
*I haven’t watched “Start Up”, so I am looking forward to it. I don’t know though if I can keep watching only 1 episode a week. I will try.
Seven Seas, you are too funny! You even have the receipts! "December 2023 (5.17)" LOL!
DeleteSeven Seas, thank you for your comments and recommendations. I guess "Because This Is My First Life" has to move up the list!
DeleteThank you for the movie recommendations as well.
I hope you love Start-Up as much as we do! It is definitely binge-worthy!
Seven Seas, thank you so much! Some responses to your excellent points:
ReplyDeleteMy Mister and Mr. Sunshine, my first two Kdramas, profoundly affected me, and remain my top 2 in ways that nothing else has yet to match, you’re so right. But a book, about to come out as a movie, has had just as big an impact, and I want to recommend it to anyone who’s still reading at this point!
The book is Project Hail Mary, by Andy Weir. The movie starring Ryan Gosling will be released in March. Andy Weir wrote The Martian a few years back with a great follow up movie, but this book is even better, a masterpiece. The audio version itself has won awards. Joanna and her family are also big fans.
As for deeper on screenwriting, as you know, you can earn a master’s in film with a screenwriting emphasis that teaches all the science and mechanics of the form. But the art? The ability to reach in and touch the hearts and souls of other humans? That comes from somewhere else.
My dad’s favorite movie was The Shawshank Redemption for these reasons.
This comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteEllen,
DeleteI forgot to ask your opinion about something.
I think America is in the minority of having the so-called "Writers' room" where a series is written by a whole bunch of people.
Most countries, including Korea, dramas are written by one or two people. They might have assistants, but either way, very few people who write even longer shows. And, I know for fact that many countries have only one person writing the entire series.
Of course I have an opinion :), but I want to hear yours first.
Ellen,
DeleteI loved The Martian the movie, but I haven't read the book.
I read Project Hail Mary when it came out in 2021. I am sorry to say that I don't share your opinion. I though it was a decent book overall. I had some fun with it. That is all.
Personally, I don't consider it even a good book, let alone a masterpiece.
I will leave it that.
But, I am happy that you enjoyed it a lot.
The Shawshank Redemption is an awsome movie. It is in my "elite" category.
My husband, boys and I LOVED The Martian and Project Hail Mary! Shawshank Redemption is also wonderful.
DeleteHello Sung-Hee
DeleteI appreciate your welcoming comments of Nov.11.
I identified myself as a ‘long-time, first-time’ participant here.
I was concerned that my post of Nov.9 was not well-taken as it seemed to land with a thud with other commenters. Perhaps my trying to elicit a response to what I perceive as the deeper emotions of these dramas was inappropriate and/or not right in this forum but, as you noted, I not only listen to what’s said but also to how it’s said and I was trying to speak to those nuances of lost love, opportunities both missed and regretted.
Thanks for picking up on that.
Anonymous, have you seen Past Lives? Not a Kdrama, but very much an exploration of 'what might have been'.
DeleteI've been rewatching Hospital Playlist, and was struck by how moved I was (again) at the resolution of one particular secondary character's story arc. Those moments, and the writers/actors/directors who make them are very special.
Hello Doremi
DeleteThanks for the mention of ‘Past Lives’. I looked up a few reviews and your recommendation is on the money.
I will certainly watch.
You are welcome!
DeleteAnonymous, I don't think your comment about lost loves landed like a thud. It was sweet and caring. Thank you.
DeleteAs for Past Lives, oh boy, we LOVED that movie. Episode 11.18 is devoted to Past Lives. Just be warned that the movie is an hour and a half long, while our discussion is two hours long! Haha! Ernie was on with us and as usual, she was amazing.
Thank you for listening and commenting!
Ellen, it was so great to hear you on the podcast! I definitely learned a thing or two about screenwriting. This will help me greatly on the K drams i writing about Joanna and Sung-hee's lives! ;-) I thought it was particularly interesting the difference between Western and Easter/Korean storytelling. Also, the fact that most K Drams are 16 episodes (or sometimes 12) certainly gives the writers more time (some times too much time) to develop characters and storylines.
ReplyDeleteBonus points for working in MacGuffin and Jump the Shark - the original going to Argan.
As much as I loved hearing why some of our favorite K Dramas worked so well, I am such a hater that I could listen to a two hour podcast about why so many K Dramas just missed the mark! Believe me, I have a list!
Malcolm,
DeleteGo to bed! It is middle of night. And, I need to go back to work :)
Hi guys! Malcolm, thanks so much for your kind words. And Seven Seas, I wanted to address the “writers room” issue you raised. I know staff writers on a couple of shows, and it is very different in most American shows. But that’s because of the whole-story-within-an-episode structure of the shows. One or sometimes two writers will either pitch or be assigned to an episode with a roughly defined premise and resolution, the writer develops a draft, and then it is brought to the room for further work, especially to blend in any ongoing storylines. The assigned writers keep the writing credit for the episode.
DeleteVery different with Kdramas because the whole thing is one long story. Also, there seems to be much more collaboration between the writer and director during both the development and production of the series than in Western shows, though I certainly don’t have personal knowledge on this.
On a side note, apparently Kim Jung-hyun, in Mr. Queen, improvised much of his own dialogue as King. He was so good and inventive with it that they just let him roll! There’s one hilarious scene where he and the Queen are trying to do showy, hot PDA to kill gossip that he’s not really the father of the Queen’s baby, and he cooked up the whole thing.
I love that actor. He was my fave in CLOY, too!
DeleteI listened to this episode this evening and was impressed by Ellen’s breadth of knowledge about both screenwriting details and K dramas. I would guess she is perhaps relatively new to the genre but a quick study.
ReplyDeleteAlso, her thoughtful answers to rather in-depth questions about both writing and the dramas themselves made me wonder whether that sort of intelligence and cool-under-fire might not lend itself to that most estimable of games shows, ‘Jeopardy’. It would seem a natural fit.
Finally, apropos of nothing, I’d like to give a shout-out the new Vince Gilligan show ‘Pluribus’. The central character is an author. Just a thought.
Anonymous, thank you for your comments. I'll ask Ellen if she thinks Jeopardy is in her future. Haha! Ellen was wonderful and we're so happy that she's become a friend.
DeletePluribus! I have heard great things about it. Too many shows, too little time.
I also loved this episode! I really loved the insight into the dramas mentioned. Thank you Ellen! There was a period of time where every kdrama I watched had a serial killer. I thought every kdrama had to have one and was relieved to find one where a serial killer doesn't appear! For example, Strong Woman Do Bong Soon has a very cute romance and a ton of slapstick comedy. But there's also one of the creepiest serial killers in there too! The tonal shift from cute couple interactions to serial killer lair with a bunch of locked up women can give you whiplash. I can't remember the order I watched these, but Signal, Strong Woman Do Bong Soon, May I Help You?, King: Eternal Monarch, Death's Game, A Time Called You, W, and Flower of Evil all had serial killers. I'm so glad it's not a kdrama trope.
ReplyDeleteAlice, that is quite the list of K Dramas with serial killers. How did you manage that? Just lucky, I guess! :-)
DeleteThere is ALWAYS a dark element in these dramas. I remember watching Crash Course in Romance. It starts out very sweet and light, and then bam! there's a really dark element that knocks you back. There are very few shows that don't have a dark element, I think. Kidnapping almost became a K Drama element because it's so common!
Thank you for watching, listening and commenting!