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The songs we featured during the recap: “Young Woo’s Heart (Hard to Read Your Mind)” by Roh Young Shim and “Spring Love” by Jo Nam Wook.
The complex legal and ethical dimensions of a quasi-rape case involving a woman with an intellectual disability and her romantic partner.
How the case parallels Woo Young Woo’s own fears about her budding relationship with Lee Jun-ho.
The difficult legal distinction between consent and coercion, especially when someone has cognitive disabilities.
How the Korean legal system allows judges to overrule jury verdicts and what this means for justice.
The tender but awkward growth of the romance between Woo Young Woo and Lee Jun-ho, culminating in a sweet and respectful first kiss.
Choi Soo-yeon’s disastrous blind date with Min-sik.
The increasing tension around Kwon Min-woo’s investigation into Woo Young Woo’s true parentage and his possible motivations.
Tae Su-mi’s shocking offer to send Woo Young Woo and her father to Boston, with implications of removing her from the political scene.
The devastating confrontation between Tae Su-mi and Woo Gwang-ho, and the emotional manipulation she attempts.
The recurring theme of adults with disabilities seeking agency in their lives despite overprotective parents.
The actor Joo Jong-hyuk, who plays Kwon Min-woo, his recent roles and upcoming appearance in The Confidence Man KR with Park Min-young.
References
This was one of the best episodes in my opinion. It presented us with a difficult and controversial case without clarity, at least for me.
ReplyDeleteI really enjoyed the discussion between Joanna and Sung-Hee. I found myself agreeing much more with Sung-Hee.
The case basically hang on intentions. But, who can really know completely the intention of another person. It is tough, and I don’t have an answer, but if there is doubt we should err on the leniency imo. I felt the verdict was a bit harsh.
Personally, I didn’t view the mother that negatively. I can understand her. Frankly, I don’t know how a parent should treat their mentally challenged children, who are physically adult, but mentally teenagers or even small children. I have no expertise whatsoever.
On a much lighter note, the romance was very sweet, and the whole kiss scene great. I don’t have a lot to add to what was discussed. I will just say that the background view was very beautiful.
Tae Su-Mi lost a lot of the sympathy from E08. She is now acting selfishly, and not even in a conciliatory tone or asking for understanding of her difficulties.
I have watched Soundtrack1, which feels more like a movie (4 episodes, about 3 hours). I largely agree with SDguy. It is short and sweet. Very generic, but fairly enjoyable.
I have finished reading “The Hen Who Dreamed She Could Fly” by Hwang Seon-mi. It is short fable (about 140pages). I really enjoyed it. I think it is worth reading.
Finally, I was lucky to snatch a ticket (part of the London Film festival) for the latest Park Chan-Wook movie “No Other Choice” starring Lee Byung-hun, Son Ye-jin, Lee Sung-min (The Manager in Misaeng. One of the best Male lead performances in Kdrama I have seen), and Yeom Hye-ran amongst others.
Seven Seas, thank you for this!
DeleteI agree this was a great episode. It was nuanced and it made us think a lot about how we view and treat people with disabilities.
Totally agree with you that the romance between Woo Young Woo and Lee Jun Ho is very sweet.
I have watched Soundtrack No. 1. It was light and sweet. Worth a watch, not a lot of rewatch value, but enjoyable.
"The Hen Who Dreamed She Could Fly" sounds wonderful. As does No Other Choice, which is 100% on Rotten Tomatoes! Wow! Adding it to the list and will see if husband will watch it with me! Thank you for the recommendation.
I am listening to the audiobook version of "The Power of Nunchi: The Korean Secret to Happiness and Success" by Euny Hong. So far, very, very good.
Seven Seas - "No Other Choice" has one heck of a cast. "Misaeng" is a top 5 Kdrama for me and Lee Sung-min made the show. So hopefully this film will be on streaming.
DeleteI renewed Disney+ and am on Episode 6 of "Tempest". Quite a watch so far, although some elements are a little too real (a broad premise can be pretty real even if parts of the actual plot seem pretty far fetched). Interspersing my watch with "You and Everything Else" - I care about the characters and want to see how we get to the presenting problem that comes up in Ep 1. Complex friendship between two women that starts when they're in school and follows them to middle age amid tragedy.
SD-Guy and Seven Seas, I will have to check out "No Other Choice."
DeleteSD-Guy, I am obsessed with Tempest, and enjoying watching it with my husband and son.
I am afraid to watch "You and Everything Else." My older sister is very sick and I'm scared it will be one big sob fest. Keep me posted.
I agree with Seven Seas that this was one of the better episodes. Even though the “victim” had a different disability that WYW, the parallels were obvious, and you could see how the case impacted WYW as she considered the implications.
ReplyDeleteAs for the legal aspects of this episode, it made no sense! Again, I am not an expert on this type of criminal law, but I would suspect that in a US Court, the Court would make a determination of whether the victim had the mental capacity to consent. That would typically involve a third-party court appointed mental health professional making the determination for the Court. Not a doctor retained by either side. If the Court deemed the individual not mentally competent to consent, the perpetrator would be found guilty in this case where he admitted to the sexual encounter. If the victim was found competent, then there would be a question of whether she consented.
It seemed strange to me that Hanbada would have to call the victim to testify. She would have had to testify for the prosecution in order for them to prove their case. Maybe the fact that their client had confessed to the sexual encounter might change that? And in the US, the Court could not order the defendant out of the room. The Sixth Amendment guarantees a defendant the right to confront his accuser. In addition, a defendant has the right to assist in their own defense, so removing a defendant from key testimony would violate that. Finally, I don’t know why Hanbada did not ask the Court to remove the mother!!! Or why they didn’t call the mother as a witness. Maybe she would have lied under oath, but I would still have called her.
As for WYW meeting with the victim, I do not think there is anything unethical about that. Defense attorneys have the right to question victims and unless she was represented by another attorney, that is allowable (at least in the US). Sometimes the Court will issue restrictions or conditions on how and when the defense attorneys can meet with a victim. In this case, the fact that the victim approached WYW would mean there is no ethical problem.
I don’t understand the purpose of the jury in these trials! Imagine being called for jury duty, sitting through the trial, deliberating, and coming to a decision just for the judges to overrule you! It makes no sense. It was interesting that the jury was divided 5/4, which indicates this case is a pretty close call. Personally, I don’t think I would have found him guilty. But even if he was found guilty, I thought the sentence was too harsh. I think simply labeling him as a sex offender, ordering him to educational classes, and prohibiting him from “volunteering” with disabled groups, would have been sufficient. Maybe put him on probation as well.
One more legal quibble. It is generally not easy for an attorney to withdraw as counsel for a defendant, particularly when the defendant wants the attorney to continue representing them. Court’s disfavor counsel withdrawing because it lengthens the trail and often results in a less effective defense.
Oh, there was one very accurate legal thing in the episode – When Attorney Jung said it’s bad to let people know you are a lawyer! LOL
As for the rest of the episode, what is Tae Su-mi thinking? What is WYW going to do in Boston?!? She’s not admitted to practice law there. We don’t know if she can speak the language. I’m sure Tae Su-mi would just have her locked away in some office reviewing contracts or something like that. And her accusing Woo Gwang-ho of something is rich! He stayed out of her sight for 26 years. Was it his master plan to raise a brilliant lawyer just so he can confront her? Give me a break.
DeleteI also thought Lee Jun-hoo was out of line for attacking his friend. I think his friends were genuinely looking out for him. They may have been inartful at times, but I think they had his best interests at heart.
And finally, for the record Joanna, Park Min-young has never been in a “middling” drama. Her very presence means the drama cannot be middling! 😉
What’s that? What’s Malcolm Watching? Thanks for not asking!
DeleteBob Apattie Your Majesty on Netflix – Only two episodes left, and I am loving it. This is really more of a cooking show than a drama. It’s even inspired me to cook a few Korean dishes.
Tempest on Disney/Hulu – Still has an absolutely ridiculous plot, but the chemistry between the two leads is absolute fire!
Confidence Queen on Amazon Prime – Park Min-young is the star. That is all you need to know. Go watch it!
A Hundred Memories on Viki – This show is absolutely amazing. Go watch it now! If you liked Reply 1988, 25/21, and When Life Gives You Tangerines, this show is for you! The show stars Kim Da-mi (Our Beloved Summer, Itaewon Class) and Shin Ye-Eun (Jeongnyeon: The Star is Born and one of the high school bullies from The Glory) as bus fare collection girls in 1980s Seoul. Honestly, when I first saw the busses and the uniforms, I thought it was set in 1950s Seoul, which gives you an idea of how quickly South Korea has changed. They form a friendship and endure everyday life in the ‘80s. The male lead is Heo Nam-jun (When the Phone Rings, When the Stars Gossip). Longtime readers of WMW will know that I do not watch K Dramas for the male leads, but this kids face card is off the charts! It is a bit strange that the actor is 32 and playing a high school student! The actress playing his mother is only 11 years older than him! But it works. This is just a great slice of life drama with great writing and acting. Cannot recommend highly enough.
That’s all for this week. Off to watch my “middling” dramas….
Malcolm,
DeleteSo, it seems we agree that the sentence is harsh, but I think the harshest part of it is labelling him s*x offender (putting star just in case Blogger deem that as an explicit content). I think the consequences of that is worse than 2 years in prison.
Thanks for pointing out "A Hundred Memories". Considering that Reply 1988, and 25/21 are amongst the "Crème de la crème" of my Kdramas, I am highly likely to at least like it. I am NOT happy though that it is starring Kim Da-mi. I don't like this actress that much. I tolerated her in Itaewon Class, and dropped Nine Puzzles because of her (or maybe her character?) But, maybe I can give her another chance.
Very curious to see what you think of A Hundred Memories Seven Seas.
DeleteOne last item I forgot to comment on. I have had a lot of rough late night outs before going to work, but I have never showed up at trial wearing the same outfit as the day before! LOL You go Soo-yeon!
Malcolm,
DeleteYou might have to wait for a bit though. I am taking a short time off from Kdramas. Gearing up to at least two upcoming ones. One already mentioned by Ellen, but I am looking forward to "Typhoon Family" (Lee Jun Ho, Kim Min Ha (Loved her in Pachinko), and Sung Dong Il(Loved him in Reply1988) ) starting in two weeks.
As for clothes and lawyers. When I was watching Beyond The Bar, and the FL turned up at night in the office in her home clothes carrying shopping bag just to say Thank you I almost dropped the series then and there lol.
Oh my goodness! I'm late to the party again. I've been on travel and I've been sick! Such a great discussion about this episode!
DeleteMalcolm, thank you for your legal review of the case. Super helpful!
You all know that I'm with Ellen on Yang Jeong Il. I felt like he was engaging in predatory behavior, so I was glad to see him locked up. I think his sentence should have been longer. And I think this because he had done the same thing to another young woman with disabilities.
As for the shows I'm watching, I'm loving Bon Appetit and Tempest. I just watched episode 6 of Tempest and I'll watch episode 7 with my husband and son tomorrow. I can't wait for the final two episodes of Bon Appetit, but I'm also sad because it will mean the end of the show. Lee Chae Min and Lim Woo Na are doing such a great job!
I found this episode to be a difficult watch, so I can't exactly say I "enjoyed it," but I appreciate the show is now serving us more ambiguity and complexity. I thought it was interesting that this was the second episode in a row that our brilliant Woo was unable to pull a Perry Mason for her client, despite any whale/dolphin visits of inspiration!
ReplyDeleteThis episode did contain a thorny question that has stuck with me, and I can't quite shake it -- why shouldn't a person with an intellectual disability have the same rights to be in a miserable relationship as the rest of us? (this is mostly a joke, but I hope you know what I'm saying here.) I'm asking this on a purely HUMAN level, completely separate from the legal sphere. Why should her bitter mother (yes, I'm judging her negatively) get to make this decision for her adult daughter?
These are exceptionally difficult questions, and if I was a parent in that particular situation I'm sure I'd have strong feelings about it. The episode did a great job of showing these complexities, even as they piled on more evidence that the boyfriend was AT BEST selfish, reckless and immature, and at worst absolutely deserving of incarceration & permanently registering his name somewhere. And of course this tied in with Woo's own difficult questions of independence and her ability to be in a relationship.
I love this show so much, but this squirmy episode caused me enough discomfort that I can't say it was a favorite.
Jeff, you ask a great question. I guess in the end, we all have the right to be in a miserable relationship and we shouldn't be protected from everything. But people with disabilities should have a measure of society's protections, I feel.
DeleteAs a parent, I have to navigate between clearing my boys' paths of obstacles, and letting them go through life with the bumps and bruises that will shape their character.
I'm so glad that you love this show. We love this show so much and it's been so fun and so meaningful to watch each episode deeply, talk about it, and then discuss with you all!
It feels so good to be back commenting on the blog! Life has been busy—our household shipment finally arrived, and we definitely brought more than our new space can handle. I’ve been listening to the podcast, and you’ve been keeping me company while I unpack and organize.
ReplyDeleteThis episode was tough to watch because of the case, but it’s also one of the good ones. We finally got THE kiss, so sweet and beautifully shot!
Joanna, I can’t wait to start Tempest; I have a feeling it’s right up my alley. I also finished Beyond the Bar and really enjoyed that series. Right now, I’m watching Bon Appétit, Your Majesty, and I agree—it feels much more like Iron Chef.
Irma, welcome back! I hope the unpacking in Bangkok is going well!
DeleteI agree this episode was tough, but really good.
I can't wait to hear what you think of Tempest. I'm obsessed with this show!
Thank you, everyone, for your thoughtful comments.
ReplyDeleteI agree, this episode was complicated and it is hard to know what the right answer is. Should the young disabled woman have the right to love a man, even if he is lacking in so many ways? Did that young man really love her, or was he just using her? How much protection does a disabled person need and under what circumstances?
Thanks, Malcolm, for your legal interpretation of the case. I think we all agree that the writers are a little fast and loose with the legal aspects. I would think your points are likely correct, even accounting for the differences between the Korean and American legal systems.
In the end, I think each episode aims to illustrate a different social or legal conundrum that faces South Korean society today, even if they are not completely correct in the details.
I was not going to comment, but I must disagree with you guys on the sentence. Have you forgotten that he was accused of another association with a mentally disabled young woman? Who also paid his way for their entertainment and possibly was seduced by him? This is a bad guy, who seems to target young women with mental disabilities AND money enough to entertain him in a style he cannot afford on his own. To me, given the mental age of the young woman, this was the equivalent of statutory rape in the U.S. And the sentence was fine, a bit light. There’s every reason to believe that he would do it all again.
ReplyDeleteEllen, these are excellent and fair points, and I wouldn't argue against anything you wrote here.
DeleteI think the show said her mental age was 13. However, she is legally an adult. I got the impression from her actions that she was fully aware of the consequences of her actions in a way that seemed more mature than a 13 year old. Which is why I thought the relationship was consensual. She knew her boyfriend was not a great guy and she still wanted to date him - that is a decision a lot of people without mental handicaps make all the time. As Jeff said, why shouldn't a person with an intellectual disability have the same rights to be in a miserable relationship as the rest of us? Put another way, shouldn't this young woman be given some agency at some point? Conveniently for the story, her disability seemed right on the cusp of whether she should be allowed to make those decisions.
DeleteIn addition, her mother had her LIE to the police about the sexual encounter. That is a crime! But I agree that this guy was pretty shady and should not be around mentally disabled people. That is why I thought probation and a ban on him joining these organizations would have been fair. I think the comments on this blog are much like the 5/4 split jury. And just like the jury - they don't matter! ;-)
Ellen,
DeleteI would have absolutely hated to be on the jury. I was actually once selected to be a juror in a criminal case, but I have asked the Court to excuse me playing the language card lol. Luckily they agreed.
But the truth is I would have been terrified to decide the fate of someone else.
I want to repeat that I don't have strong opinion about the verdict. But, while I fully agree that he is shady with bad behaviour, financial exploitation is one thng, r**e is another.
As Sung-Hee mentioned in the podcast, you can be a scumbag, but still love (or at least have affections) that person. People can have two opposite traits.
I certainly think he deserved some punishment, just not as severe.
But, I equally understand your (and Joanna's) pov. If you believe he is guilty of the charges, then the verdict is right.
I so appreciate that we don't have any trolls in our community. We can each have our opinions, we don't have to agree, and I love that we seem to be listening carefully to each other's perspectives. Love you all for this!
DeleteI should add that I’m biased. My family has a treasured member who is similarly challenged, and she is the sweetest, kindest person any of us have ever known. We’re all protective of her, and her few dates have been very honorable and anxious to reassure the family of their good intentions. WYW’s boyfriend seems more like them, not like this guy.
ReplyDeleteAs I said above, I’m so biased on this, but Seven Seas, Malcolm, and Jeff in Tamps, I so appreciate your perspective and thoughtful, kind responses. When you know and care for someone like this, it’s so hard to be objective and look at the bigger picture. But you’re all correct that he has rights too.
ReplyDeleteI would not have been picked for this jury. To me, her self-mutilation of the skin on her hands told the tale of her anxiety and discomfort with their encounter, more than his or her words. This one was rough for us all! I look forward every week to hear what you guys think, thanks again.
Hello everyone!
ReplyDeleteI had planned on commenting earlier and had so much to say but I thought better as this was a controversial episode and I would end up writing a book. After listening to the latest podcast, listening to Sung Hee's comments about thoughtful commenting I felt I should add some of my thoughts, very truncated though so I hope it makes sense.
Every episode shows a little something of navigating as a disabled person through the typical world. I say this because I have watched this series as a parent of children with disabilities and also a retired music teacher. My former profession is mentioned as music and art were the subjects typically called upon to fulfill the educational requirements of mainstreaming children with disabilities.
As a parent of children with special needs, you want what is best. One of the most important experiences (however, difficult and heartbreaking) you want for your child is to have friends. While young, it may be easy to have children of the same age associate with your child, but that changes quickly as the typical child progresses and leaves yours behind. Nothing sinister, it is just how things are, especially if there is a cognitive and/or physical delay. As the disabled child progresses through school, segregated classes isolate them from the regular population so friendships cannot develop unless it is with other disabled children. At lunchtime, the school populations break in to their little groups of friends. The disabled class sits on their own as they need to eat slowly, or have special diets, etc. Pretty soon the lunch room is empty with the exception of the children with disabilities. There are some with disabilities who fit into a regular classroom better but many still go through being left behind as they get older. Most of the children grow up with only family, therapists and doctors as friends.
Many parents experience a type of guilt (elaborating would take too long but it relates to parental blame for the disability) and end up over compensating. While they desperately wish for a bosom buddy friend like Dong Geulami, which could be possible if their child was as high functioning as Atty Woo, the reality is back to family, therapists and doctors.
The mother in this episode, I feel, was reacting out of the betrayal of hope, being protective, and guilt. You want your children to have independence, and they have a “right” to it, but, as a parent, you are on pins and needles while they make their way in the world. Having friends gives a child many experiences with emotions which, in many cases, could lead to stronger feelings toward another person. Navigating through the adolescent heartache is difficult.
I agree with Jeff and MalcolmPDX on the following,
“As Jeff said, why shouldn't a person with an intellectual disability have the same rights to be in a miserable relationship as the rest of us? Put another way, shouldn't this young woman be given some agency at some point?”
It was a difficult episode and there are no easy answers. The episode had a resolution, but I do not think it would have the same exact outcome in America or even in South Korea should the situation happen again. I do think the “boyfriend” deserved the punishment but again, I feel with more investigation the sentence would be different.
Sorry so long! There is so much more...